Podcast #74
Knowing better is one thing. Actually changing what we do is something else entirely. In Part 2 of this conversation, Dr Nerida and veterinarian and social worker Dr Katherine Goldberg go deeper into the very human reasons horse management practices can be so hard to change.
They use one of the simplest horse welfare changes as the perfect case study: feeding hay before you ride. Why does something so easy, with such clear benefits for our horses around gastric health, comfort and behaviour, still meet resistance?
Then Nerida and Katherine jump back on after Pony Camp for a real-world update and put the psychology into practice, looking at decisional balance, why being the only person doing something differently can feel hard, and why sometimes the best way to create change is simply to keep modelling the better way, loudly and positively.
Connect with Dr Katherine Goldberg
Dr Katherine works with horse owners through Horses First Stewardship, helping people navigate horse care, feeding, track systems and those tricky situations where you know something needs to change, but you’re not quite sure what to do next.
Website: https://www.horsesfirststewardship.com Email: horsesfirststewardship@gmail.com
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Dr. Katherine and I are back, because we've thought of some things that we wanted to add to this podcast, and I'm also now post-ponycam, so I can give you a little update on that as well, but welcome back, Dr. Katherine, it's so lovely to see you again.
[kjg25] 06:51:37
Thank you. Always fun. Always fun.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:51:41
So, you had some things, as always, and I often do this when I finish recording podcasts as well, going, oh man, I should have said that, and I should have said this, and there was just a couple of little things that you wanted to add on. One of them being that brilliant.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:51:56
Decisional balance grid that we spoke about, so there was the disadvantage on one side and the benefit on the other, and we talked about how with every change, there's always a disadvantage and a benefit, and it's a matter of weighing those two.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:52:12
things up, which is such a brilliant way to think about changing the way we manage horses in a lot of respects. But you wanted to add in there for us as a practical example, the feeding hay before you ride, and perhaps even the 24-7.
[kjg25] 06:52:29
Sure.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:52:29
hay. Um, so I'll let you take it away on that, and add the information that.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:52:35
you wanted to add? Because I think it'll be great to have that practical example of how we think about this in real life.
[kjg25] 06:52:37
Sure.
[kjg25] 06:52:42
Yeah, I think I thought about this after the fact and was like, wait, we should actually give some practical examples. And so this hay before we ride, which we are so keen on for a lot of different reasons, is I think a really good example. So if we were to have this grid and think about.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:52:55
Mmhm.
[kjg25] 06:53:00
Starting with the benefits. So the change, first we have to operationalize like, what is the change? The change is feeding hay before we ride. And so what would be like the benefit of doing that? And I will leave that to you because we know all these benefits, but since you are the nutritionist, maybe you have a succinct, like, what would you put in that?
[kjg25] 06:53:21
box of why we would do that.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:53:22
Yeah, so, well, the way I explain it really quickly is that somewhere along the 55 million year evolution of the horse, the horses held up the on/off switch for gastric acid production and went, why do we have this?
[kjg25] 06:53:35
Hmm. Okay.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:53:37
And, you know, the consensus was that they didn't actually need it because they were eating constantly. And, you know, only taking short breaks from eating over a 24 hour period. And so they didn't actually need to switch acid production on and off because it was it was just on all the time because they were eating.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:53:53
So they've tossed it at some point in evolution. They don't have that gastric acid on-off switch. So if we leave horses for a number of hours, so 4 to 6 hours without feed, their stomach empties.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:54:07
There's gastric acid in the bottom that can, uh, all I just mentioned on a podcast that we'll hear in, in a few weeks' time, one of the, um, gastroscopes she did, the, the pH of the fluid she pulled out of the stomach was one point something, like it's.
[kjg25] 06:54:21
Right.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:54:22
scary low after a 12-hour fast for a gastroscope. And if we ride our horses in on an empty stomach, that acid, you know all this, Katherine, but that acid then is either squeezed or splashed up onto the top section of the stomach, and that part of the stomach also, during evolution, didn't.
[kjg25] 06:54:23
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:54:39
Need to develop any protection from the gastric acid because it relied on the stomach always being full of fiber and the stomach also having lots of saliva washing through it from chewing that fiber so it's completely unprotected from the acid so when we don't.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:54:54
When we ride without making sure our horses' stomachs are full of hay, we risk splashing that very, very low pH, um, essentially like battery acid fluid around on the top of our horses' stomachs, and that will just eat holes through the stomach lining, and.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:55:10
cause ulceration, so it's incredibly important. And it also causes pain, which then causes behavioral issues, which then causes rider safety issues, and ruins your ride. You know, like, there's so many reasons from a human perspective, and also from the horse's perspective, to feed hay before you ride.
[kjg25] 06:55:11
Bad things.
[kjg25] 06:55:18
Yeah.
[kjg25] 06:55:25
You got it. So you actually just filled out two quadrants, I would say, because we've not only got, we framed it as like, what are the benefits of doing this thing? But you also got to the, what are the disadvantages of not doing the thing, right? So the consequences, right? If we put like the negatives.
[kjg25] 06:55:41
of not changing or staying the same, right, would be, like, all these health consequences. So ulcers, behavior change, rider safety, all these things. The benefit of feeding the hay before you ride is.
[kjg25] 06:55:53
reduction in ulceration, reduction in pain, increased rider safety, right? So those are sort of opposite sides of the same, um.
[kjg25] 06:56:00
Yeah, the same thought process. And then if we were to say, well, what, what this? So if it's so clear, then why don't people do this? And this is where the other quadrants I think come in. So is there a potential when I think about this, is there a potential?
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:56:11
Mmm.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:56:13
Uh-huh.
[kjg25] 06:56:18
disadvantage to doing the thing? Is there a disadvantage to feeding hay before you ride? And things that I might come up with, even if I think this is like so obvious and a low hanging fruit and like there would be no reason to not do it. I have to think to myself, self.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:56:24
Mm-hmm.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:56:31
Mmhm.
[kjg25] 06:56:34
What would be reasons why people would not do this? Well, I guess you need to feed hay like it's an extra task, right? You have to put hay in the aisle. You have to put hay in a hay net, I guess. Maybe people would say, well, there's mess because my horse is standing in the aisle eating hay, and then there's mess on the ground. And if I don't feed hay before I ride, then the.
[kjg25] 06:56:54
Wherever I'm tacking my horse up, that might be in the aisle, that might be, you know, in cross ties or something, there might be more mess there. So it might be hard for us to grasp at these things, because for you, you know, for us, it's like, this is so obvious. Like, there's no disadvantage. But we have to really recognize that for some people, they might say, oh, there is a disadvantage. It's more work. It's an extra task.
[kjg25] 06:57:16
There might be more mess, I guess, depending on what kind of feed or hay you're feeding, you have to decide which horses are allowed to have access to that. But those are some small things, but I would put those in. That's the disadvantage. It's like an extra step, right?
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:57:26
Yep.
[kjg25] 06:57:32
Um, so we've covered what's the benefit of doing it. It's all the health benefits and rider safety and horse welfare benefits, um, feeding the hindgut and all those things. The…
[kjg25] 06:57:43
Disadvantage to doing it would be…
[kjg25] 06:57:46
having health consequences and pain and rider safety issues, right?
[kjg25] 06:57:52
The…
[kjg25] 06:57:53
Disadvantage to making the change would be maybe there's mess and there's extra work.
[kjg25] 06:58:00
And then…
[kjg25] 06:58:01
What's the…
[kjg25] 06:58:03
What's the benefit?
[kjg25] 06:58:04
of doing nothing. What's the benefit of staying the same? I guess that might be your clean barn aisle, or feeding less hay, or it's less work. So it's sort of feels like it's the same like we're saying the same thing in all these quadrants. But I think.
[kjg25] 06:58:21
This is such a very clear example that it almost makes it harder to have distinction in these quadrants.
[kjg25] 06:58:31
making sense. Right?
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:58:32
And, and does the, does the, um, the authority and the, like, that doing what we've always done because we've always done it, or, you know, your, your riding coach or your vet has said, don't do that, and so…
[kjg25] 06:58:47
Mmm.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:58:48
There's that, like, there's the other elements of…
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:58:51
of change that would also sort of feed into that, so I guess a… a benefit could be that you… you get to…
[kjg25] 06:58:56
That's a good poem.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:59:01
maintain your beliefs in this area, because there's also pretty strong beliefs against feeding hay, and I think something I've realised is that when we, you know, with a veterinary background and with a nutritionist background.
[kjg25] 06:59:02
Mm-hmm.
[kjg25] 06:59:04
Yeah.
[kjg25] 06:59:09
Right.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:59:18
we don't think of things at a surface level. Like, we see forward so many steps, or within so many processes that are going on, when externally, it's just, you know, feed hay to a horse before you ride, but.
[kjg25] 06:59:22
Okay.
[kjg25] 06:59:26
Mmhm.
[kjg25] 06:59:31
Mmhm.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:59:36
But most people wouldn't then…
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:59:39
see what we see professionally in the same level of detail. And I realized this at Pony Camp, we got back to the stables at lunchtime, and it was quite hot.
[kjg25] 06:59:41
That's true.
[kjg25] 06:59:43
Right.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 06:59:51
And the blue troop, the big kids, which was where Tamaya was riding with Olay, her big thoroughbred, all got back to the stables, and they only had about half an hour before lunch before they had to be back at the stables again to saddle up. So these horses were going to get half an hour for lunch. And Tamaya hosed Olay off, because she's massive, and she's black, and she feels.
[kjg25] 07:00:02
Hmm.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:00:11
the heat pretty acutely. And none of the other kids were hosing their horses off. And I'm saying to them, you kids need to hose your horses off. Oh no, we'll just wet brush them and stuff. Anyway, I said to their troop leader, like, you need to get on to your kids about hosing their horses. And he said, I did. And I said, well, none of them have hosed.
[kjg25] 07:00:11
Yeah. Okay.
[kjg25] 07:00:17
Uh-huh.
[kjg25] 07:00:19
Mmhm.
[kjg25] 07:00:25
Yep.
[kjg25] 07:00:27
Interesting.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:00:28
But I realised after I said that, that what I'm seeing is those horses have been working, it's hot, they've not been hosed off. Therefore, they're going to be redirecting the blood from their gut to their periphery, the surface.
[kjg25] 07:00:41
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:00:43
to offload heat, which means the gut is going to be starved, which means the gut is going to start leaking, which is then going to set up systemic inflammation. You know, like, there's all these…
[kjg25] 07:00:51
Yeah, you've got like flow charts of physiology like in your brain as you're looking at this kid with a horse. Yeah, 100%.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:00:54
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:00:57
Yeah! Whereas the kids… the kids are going, we've got half an hour for lunch, the horses are not sweating…
[kjg25] 07:01:01
Yeah, we need to eat.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:01:03
Anyway, yeah, we need to eat and, and be back here, and that, and that's it. And I didn't, but I didn't realize that for days after, uh, that, that, you know, there was all these levels of my thinking about, oh man, none of them have hosed their horses off and, and cooled them down adequately.
[kjg25] 07:01:04
Yes.
[kjg25] 07:01:06
100%.
[kjg25] 07:01:17
Great.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:01:19
And on the surface, it looks like me just being, you know, you need to do certain management procedures with your horses, otherwise you're not doing it right. But, so it would be, I guess, the same thing in this situation with feed hay before you ride. So, so it's so obvious to us because we see it in such acute detail.
[kjg25] 07:01:19
Right.
[kjg25] 07:01:24
Right.
[kjg25] 07:01:27
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:01:36
And then on the other side, you've also got the, you know, it's a straight road to colic, and I don't ride with anyone else that feeds hay, so when… when you… and it's a little bit like the addiction, substance addiction, that you were speaking about when we were talking about this quadrant initially.
[kjg25] 07:01:43
Mmhm.
[kjg25] 07:01:53
Right.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:01:55
Is if your group of horse riding friends doesn't do this.
[kjg25] 07:01:55
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:02:00
And you suddenly step away and do something different.
[kjg25] 07:02:00
Yes.
[kjg25] 07:02:02
Mm-hmm.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:02:04
There's… there's lots in… that you'll be able to explain from the social worker perspective far better than I, but there's going to be lots in that, too.
[kjg25] 07:02:04
Yeah.
[kjg25] 07:02:10
That's true. I mean, I think you're speaking to, and I'm glad you brought it up because I didn't really address this, is like, what is the…
[kjg25] 07:02:18
a disadvantage like a negative of doing the thing of feeding the hay is maybe being a little different, maybe bucking the system, maybe being the only one who is feeding your horse before you ride, and nobody else is doing it. And so it's like you. You have to be.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:02:24
Mmhm.
[kjg25] 07:02:35
a little bit brave. You know, you are maybe on the edge of something that's different. And so, depending again on all these things we talked about already, our own experiences, our temperament, our level of self-compassion, our level of emotional regulation, all those things like.
[kjg25] 07:02:51
some of us are going to be more okay with being different and doing something that takes a little bit of effort, um, than others. And so, the benefit of.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:02:57
Mm-hmm.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:02:59
Yep.
[kjg25] 07:03:02
You know, not doing it.
[kjg25] 07:03:06
also would include, I don't have to be different. I don't have to bump the system. I don't have to make a fuss, so to say. Like, I, you know, I talk to people who are constantly in a state of, like.
[kjg25] 07:03:17
I gotta pick my battles, you know? Like, which thing am I really gonna…
[kjg25] 07:03:25
fight for in a, let's say, in a boarding situation where, you know, you don't necessarily have control, you're not keeping your horse at your own home. And so people do have to make decisions realistically about, like, are they gonna make sure the hay is tested? Are they gonna make sure if they do test the hay and it comes back something they don't like, who's gonna then.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:03:26
Yeah.
[kjg25] 07:03:44
Supply the hay. Like, there are very legitimate… I mean, it might even be a better or more complex example to put…
[kjg25] 07:03:52
feeding 24/7 forage on the grid, right? Because that comes with actually a very significant number of considerations in terms of, well, how are you going to do that? Even if we say there's enormous benefits of feeding 24/7 forage.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:03:55
Mm-mm.
[kjg25] 07:04:09
Um, actually, someone, uh, I was just listening to you on a podcast, the chair of the Equine Endocrinology Group, um, he made the comment.
[kjg25] 07:04:17
Horses are designed to eat nothing all day long. And I'm like, that is amazing! That's, like, one of the best statements I've ever heard.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:04:25
Yeah!
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:04:28
Yep, just don't take it out of context, but yeah.
[kjg25] 07:04:30
Right.
[kjg25] 07:04:31
So like this, like they basically need to eat, you know, basically.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:04:31
Yes.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:04:34
It just…
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:04:35
Rough.
[kjg25] 07:04:35
Trickle feeding, like, all day long. So, um…
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:04:36
Yep.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:04:37
Yep.
[kjg25] 07:04:40
That idea, even if you physiologically, health wise, nutrition wise, know that this is what is ideal for health, there are some legitimate, like I'm saying, systems implementation issues of like, how are you going to do that? What hay are you feeding? What kind of slow feeding system are you using? How do you get everyone on board with that? If you have a large group of horses.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:04:53
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[kjg25] 07:04:59
you know, how are you gonna manipulate all these things? And so, if you put that on this grid, right, like, there are gonna be some specific things that.
[kjg25] 07:05:09
will be disadvantageous. Like, you have to have an initial output of money, to be honest, to like have a slow feeding system. Once it's in place.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:05:15
Yep.
[kjg25] 07:05:19
it's like, set it and forget it. But at the outset there's going to be some effort. There's going to be some time. There's going to be emotional investment, financial investment. And that is very real. So like, that's where I think the decisional balance.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:05:21
Mm-hmm.
[kjg25] 07:05:36
you know, really shines. Not that it doesn't in the hey before you ride example. But it's like it's almost hard for us to do that example narrative, because we're like, well, it's so obvious like, why would people not do this?
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:05:43
Yeah, because it's, yeah, so, yeah, I know.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:05:49
And it makes, it makes such a difference to the horses that it is really hard to understand. And I think the other thing with the hay before you ride too, is that when we eat as humans and then try to exercise, it feels terrible. You know, like, I mean, you, you're a distance athlete on horses, but you're also a distance athlete.
[kjg25] 07:06:04
Yeah.
[kjg25] 07:06:05
Yep.
[kjg25] 07:06:07
Yep.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:06:08
under your own steam. And there's no way that you would go and have a big meal before you run, or exercise, because you'd end up with a stitch, and you'd feel terrible.
[kjg25] 07:06:09
Yep.
[kjg25] 07:06:13
Oh, God, no.
[kjg25] 07:06:17
I was running this morning in the dark before work and on an empty stomach. Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:06:20
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:06:21
And you didn't eat a whole big pile of hay before you left. Yeah, so, you know, it's so… I mean, it feels so good to us to exercise with an empty stomach, and it's hard for us to… I mean, we anthropomorphize so much with our animals these days, and.
[kjg25] 07:06:25
I did not. I ate nothing.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:06:40
And we think about them, I guess, in terms of how we feel because they can't speak and tell us for themselves. So it is a really hard mental shift to go, well, it feels terrible for us, but that's what's normal and feels good.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:06:55
To them.
[kjg25] 07:06:57
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:06:57
It changes so complex. This is what this whole…
[kjg25] 07:07:00
It's like anthropomorphizing physiologic function or something, if that's a thing. Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:07:03
Mm-hmm, it is, yep.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:07:06
Yeah, so… and we do it. I mean, I did it in this podcast where we were talking about letting horses drink when they're hot, and I said, oh, so I shouldn't say, you know, we do it all the time, because it's never a good idea to transpose what's good for us onto our horses, because often.
[kjg25] 07:07:12
Oh, right.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:07:22
What's good for us is not good for them.
[kjg25] 07:07:24
Not good. You corrected yourself, though. In your defense, you did correct yourself.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:07:26
I… I did.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:07:28
I did, but… but, you know, it just goes to show that even… I have, you know, this really, um, detailed understanding of their gastrointestinal physiology, and even I still do it.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:07:39
where I think about them in terms of the way we feel. Um, but yeah, anyway, I mean, I think the… the wrap-up of this is that… that change… change is so…
[kjg25] 07:07:40
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:07:52
Complex.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:07:53
And there's lots of reasons why, when something seems really obvious, we still…
[kjg25] 07:07:53
It is.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:08:00
don't change in, in all areas of our life, but I mean, we, we're focused on, on the way people feed. And it was actually, um, we, we spoke quite a lot about pony camp in this episode, and.
[kjg25] 07:08:03
Yeah. Okay.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:08:13
It's post-pony camp now, so I survived just… I think we got home at about 7 p.m. on the Saturday night, and that Sunday I had three sleeps. I was so tired, and then I went back to bed again that night at a normal time and just slept like I normally would.
[kjg25] 07:08:15
Hmm. Okay.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:08:29
It was, um, it was tiring, but the really lovely thing was that the horses all came through beautifully. You know, the next day they were… we could have gone out and done another… another week on them. They were so… they were so good, and it really is amazing to watch them go from, you know, 24-7 pasture and free.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:08:45
You know, they've got… they've got freedom to… into a stable, on hay.
[kjg25] 07:08:47
Yep.
[kjg25] 07:08:48
Freedom.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:08:51
Um, and… and I think a poet quite liked the, you know, food delivery system, and that he didn't have to walk anywhere to… I think he just lapped up all the attention. But it was interesting to me, because… so we… we spoke about the… the welfare code of Pony Club Australia, and horses having to have access to food every 6 hours, and…
[kjg25] 07:08:56
Right?
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:09:08
Lunchtime on day one, 70% of horses had no hay. And I'm there going, oh, you know, all these horses are going to go out and be ridden this afternoon on empty stomachs with kids on them. And this is not good for in any way.
[kjg25] 07:09:11
Great.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:09:23
And so I spoke to the chief instructor and I said, you know, we really need to make sure that everyone's feeding hay. And she said, I did tell everyone that they needed to feed hay. And I said, well, I'm more than happy to jump on the bandwagon with you and make sure. So she was great. She was up there at every lunchtime in a golf buggy with hay on the back going around and giving any horse that didn't have hay hay. So it made me so happy. And they also got hay at night too, which wasn't on the original feeding schedule.
[kjg25] 07:09:38
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
[kjg25] 07:09:47
Lovely.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:09:52
the horses came through looking pretty good, and I did a very short talk showing people the evolutionary timescale, you know, 10 meters of string, and that the time humans have been in lives, it's, like, less than a millimeter. I know, it's freaky, it boggles my brain every time I do it, but.
[kjg25] 07:10:03
Oh, sweet!
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:10:11
The interesting thing to me was that there were people there.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:10:16
that saw that talk, and yet some of their horses were the ones that didn't have hay at night, and I just… it doesn't make any sense to me that you can hear that information and still not do the thing.
[kjg25] 07:10:25
Yeah, thank you.
[kjg25] 07:10:28
Yes. Yes. And those folks are not ready for change.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:10:28
But this is where…
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:10:32
Mmm!
[kjg25] 07:10:34
Because they've been given the information, they've even been given a demonstration of modeled behavior by hay in a golf cart.
[kjg25] 07:10:44
And they're still not doing it. So, that's unfortunate, to say the least, but it's also demonstrating to me, like, that that's just where they are.
[kjg25] 07:10:54
There.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:10:54
And it's just human behaviour. We have to be ready for change to make a change. Yeah.
[kjg25] 07:10:56
They're not ready for change. Yeah.
[kjg25] 07:10:59
There's no readiness, you know? I mean, it brings up, actually, there's this quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who, you know, the incredible Supreme Court justice. She said, fight for the things that you care about, but do it in a way that will lead others to join you.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:11:00
And.
[kjg25] 07:11:14
And I just find that so powerful, right? Because…
[kjg25] 07:11:18
It's like…
[kjg25] 07:11:20
We can't be yelling and screaming at people to feed their horses hay. That's not going to do it. But if we just keep feeding our horses hay.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:11:23
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:11:29
Yeah, yeah.
[kjg25] 07:11:30
In a very public, very positive, very voluminous manner that people just see that we are feeding our horses hay all the time.
[kjg25] 07:11:40
Be the way that will encourage others to join you and do it.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:11:45
And hopefully things like, I mean, doing exactly what we're doing now, you know, like, putting this information out, and then there's the people who are ready for change who are here and listening, thank you everyone, and are definitely ready for change and are just wanting to know what to change, how to change, how to do it, you know, absolutely.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:12:02
perfectly for their horses, or as perfectly as we… as we can manage. And then… and then it's often those people who will then… you know, then there's… then there's lots of us feeding hay publicly, and talking about it, and suggesting to people, and… and, you know, there's… there's… yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:12:18
we'll get there. We're seeing… we're seeing change, and I guess we just have to be okay with not being able to change everyone all at the same time, as much as we'd like to. Where's my magic wand?
[kjg25] 07:12:20
Yeah.
[kjg25] 07:12:27
That's right.
[kjg25] 07:12:30
Yes, and we also recognizing the other thought I had was.
[kjg25] 07:12:35
how hard change is independent from any academic model, independent from any research.
[kjg25] 07:12:43
You know, paper.
[kjg25] 07:12:46
what's familiar is what's comfortable. And what's… and that's easy, right? What's, like, familiarity is just comfort. Even if familiarity is not…
[kjg25] 07:12:57
physiologically, you know, optimal for a horse, or even if what's familiar and comfortable isn't healthy in your own behaviors or your relationships, or all these things. And so it's like sometimes with students. I think about. There's 2 paths in the woods, you know. One is like really well trodden. It's the one that you take all the time, because it's.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:13:05
Yep.
[kjg25] 07:13:15
familiar, and it's easy to walk, because you walk that path all the time. And then on the other, you know, side of the woods is, like, a new path.
[kjg25] 07:13:26
And it's like, you could take this metaphor for as far as you want, but it's like, you know, there's brambles and bushes, and you have to bushwhack, and it's hard, and it's muddy because you haven't made the path yet. So it's like, inherently, the new path is uncomfortable because it's new. Just because it's new, it's inherently less comfortable, and so we trend towards what.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:13:35
Yeah.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:13:44
Hmm.
[kjg25] 07:13:45
you know, doing what's familiar, because that's easier.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:13:48
And it's safer, too, like, if you're stepping away from what everyone else is doing, there's risk involved in that, because, you know, you might get kicked out of your…
[kjg25] 07:13:52
Yeah.
[kjg25] 07:13:53
Safer.
[kjg25] 07:13:54
Yeah. Okay.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:13:57
horsey herd, so to speak, because you're now doing things differently and you're not conforming. So there really is a lot to it. I know so many people and, you know, anyone in their 40s and older sort of almost laughs at.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:14:13
at the, you know, well, I don't care what everyone else does, because you get to this stage of life and go, meh, I care much less about what people think of me than I used to, um, which is, which is great. And, and I think that is where we see, I mean, it's the majority of listeners.
[kjg25] 07:14:23
Yep.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:14:30
of this podcast are in that age bracket, and… and I think that's where we also see the biggest shifts, and, you know, our… the most people who use the My Happy Horse app and FedExcel prior to it.
[kjg25] 07:14:33
Mmm.
[kjg25] 07:14:40
Oh, that's interesting to know. Huh.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:14:42
is that… that age bracket as well, so I think it is, and I feel in myself, you know, I sort of got to my 40s and went, ah, like, this is so much easier now, because I'm not trying to fit in.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:14:53
I'm willing to step away and do what I want to do in life. But anyway, was there anything else that you wanted to add before we wrap this up for a second time? Thank you for coming back.
[kjg25] 07:15:04
No, I think this is so much. I'm so excited. Yeah. No, no. Well, David will edit and make it beautiful.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:15:13
Yeah. You'll go, oh man, I'm going to have to cut that bit out now. You mentioned him in the podcast. No.
[kjg25] 07:15:17
I would think. Sorry.
[kjg25] 07:15:19
We're basically chit-chatting for most of this. Yeah, you're gonna cut out, I hope, most of this.
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:15:23
We love you, David, and you can't cut this bit out. We make it hard for you to cut the bits out when we tell you how much we appreciate you and how good you make us sound when you edit the podcast for us, so…
[Nerida McGilchrist] 07:15:34
With that, thank you again, Dr. Katherine. It's such a pleasure to have you on this podcast, and I really look forward to whatever the topic is that we do next. And yeah, we'll see you when we see you, and thank you again for all that you do for all of the horses all around the world.
[kjg25] 07:15:51
Thank you.
